Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] The re-reality is leadership is about how you serve others, so it really is about the team. That's not a cliche. It really is about the team, ultimately. 0:12 I think the miss of leaders out there by position, maybe not by the way they act, is they, they tend to forget that. They think they need to do it all. 0:20 [upbeat music] Welcome to Long Run Labs, a weekly podcast from the team behind For The Long Run, telling the stories of those running the outdoor industry where endurance and entrepreneurship meet. 0:40 This episode is brought to you by Super affiliate, the platform that finally makes partnership marketing simple. I've used just about every affiliate and partner tool out there, and most are, uh, just not great. 0:51 Too complicated, too expensive, and way too confusing. Super affiliate changes all of that. Setup takes minutes, tracking actually works, and payouts are clear and reliable. 1:00 It's the one platform I recommend because it does just exactly what it's supposed to. 1:06 If you're a brand looking to grow through partnerships, Super Affiliate makes it easy to get partners genuinely excited to share your products. 1:12 With co-branded landing pages, flexible rewards, and built-in tools that drive action and make reporting simple, it's partnership marketing done right. Skip the headaches and head to superaffiliate.com. 1:22 Mention this podcast and your first month's free. [upbeat music] All right, we are back on the Long Run Labs podcast with Kevin Rutherford. Kevin, thanks for taking some time to chat. Stoked to be here. 1:40 We're doing it live. We're doing it live. We're doing it live. How... It doesn't get better than that. Come on. The, the last time we did a live podcast was Austin, Texas? Correct. Yeah, we were at the running event. 1:50 2023? It's either '23 or '22. It might have been '22. I wasn't in there in '22, so it must have been 2023. '23. Okay. All right. Cool. All right. Who is Kevin? 2:00 What brings you, uh, what, what brings you into the seat today? Um, you know, I just wanna hang out with you. [laughs] Let's, let's be clear. We just went to Scratch. Yeah. Scratch ta- We- Scratch Labs table. 2:09 We went to- That was delicious... to Scratch, um, formerly my, my competitor- [laughs]... uh, when I was CEO for Noon Hydration. Um, now they're, they're the frenemy, I guess, if you will. 2:21 Um, I, I think Scratch has done a great job. That was awesome, by the way. They're, they did a really nice job on that cafe, which is no surprise. I remember when they did the food trucks. Remember the food trucks? 2:29 Food trucks are great. By the way, Ian's listening to this, so. Oh, Ian. Um, all, all those nasty things I said weren't true. [laughs] Just kidding. 2:38 Um, yeah, the food trucks that they did, though, I thought were really magnificent. I, I actually did talk to Ian a little bit, and I talked, um, to Alan about that one. 2:46 Apparently, it was a tough model to kinda keep going, but, um, yeah, that was so genius. They're doing some really cool stuff. 2:52 Um, what brings me to Boulder, uh, you know, I'm just, you know, doing some work on a new company I'm with. 2:57 Uh, we actually have an activation with Costco this weekend, so, uh, there's a Costco here just outside Boulder that, that I'm at, and that's when I reached out to you and said, "Wanna catch up?" And here we are. 3:08 [laughs] So Kevin, you're someone I've looked up to in the space and, and respected a lot in terms of the work that you've done, specifically around people and culture. 3:18 Um, and so I figure we can, we can really dive into what it takes to run a company. Like, I've done a bunch of podcasts and conversations around brand marketing and marketing and fundraising, and- Mm-hmm... 3:28 maybe we can talk about that, too, but I think each person has a special sauce that they bring to a company, and I'm sure anyone that's ever worked with you would say that you are a great leader. I don't know if anyone. 3:41 [laughs] Um, but maybe a few would, and that's wonderful. Uh, the re-reality is leadership is about how you serve others, so it really is about the team. That's not a cliche. It really is about the team, ultimately. 3:53 I think the miss of leaders out there by position, maybe not by the way they act, is they, they tend to forget that. They think they need to do it all. 4:01 I should give it maybe a little context to help here for your audience on a little of my background and, and that will lead to how we met. So my background, um, 4:11 not as, as talented as you, but I've done a lot of sports, from hockey early on. Every Canadian wants to know they're Canadian, so I should start there. 4:18 Um, [laughs] and so I still play hockey, but endurance sports, I got into that, Ironman racing and marathons, et cetera. Um, it's been a couple years since I've done that, so I really wanna get back into it. 4:29 Um, but my business journey has been all about consumer packaged goods. Uh, so I started off, you know, in Canada at the largest retailer, Loblaws, and then from there I went to S.C. Johnson, a family company. 4:43 [laughs] Um, and they, uh- Really nothing on Loblaws? Do the... I feel like- Uh, Loblaws is, if you don't know anything about Loblaws, I'll just say this. It's, uh, well, that name, all, it sounds funny. Yeah. 4:52 It sounds like if you have a bunch of marbles in your mouth, you're trying to say blah blahs. Um, so Loblaws, but it's a great retailer actually. Um, it is a phenomenal retailer. You know what? I will say this. 5:03 I'm so glad I started my career at retail, because that foundation helped me all the way to this day. Like, I understand what the buyers of retailers are thinking on the other side of the desk because I was in that spot. 5:17 So it's almost very natural for me on, how do I speak to them? How do I work with our sales team to connect with them? So that's really actually paid dividends. So I will say that's a benefit. 5:27 Selfishly, Loblaws, awesome retailer if you're up north of the border. They are Walmart in scale and size to Canada as to what all, what Walmart is to the US. 5:36 Um, of course, they're not nearly as big as Walmart, t- to be super clear. I understand that. Um, a, but it's, uh... Usually, their banners are a little more upscale grocery stores. Um, really, really good stuff. 5:46 They were the pioneers of private label. Oh, yeah, here's another little unknown fact, so now that we're getting on Loblaws. Check this out. Um, Loblaws was so good at private label, 5:57 so good, Walmart hired Loblaws to develop their private label back in the '80s, I believe it is. Um, they hired Loblaws to develop their private label. 6:07 In returnWalmart agreed not to bring their superstores to Canada until, like, I don't know, 20- five-- 2005 or something, some- something like many years later. Wow. Now that's obviously expired, and here we are. 6:19 But they were that good at it. Um, and so they actually helped develop the private label for Walmart. Huh. Didn't know I was gonna go there. [laughs] Um, but I did. [laughs] Um, SC Johnson is a privately held company. 6:33 I, I think it's on the fifth generation. As I reflect back at SC Johnson, so it's cleaning company, Windex, Ziploc, Glade, Drano, all kinds of different products that many people know in their household. 6:47 But I, uh, selfishly, I will say I am so grateful for SC Johnson because they have-- they invest a lot in people, in training, how to work together. 7:00 So, so early in my career, I was learning these fundamentals on being a leader, you know, and what that means for culture, team building, but also strategy, um, and vision. So it's kind of like a mini P&G. 7:12 That's, that's kind of what I-- the way I would describe it. Phenomenal experience. They moved me to the US. Um, did that for a few years, uh, and then I realized I need to get out of cleaners. 7:22 Like, I need to do something different. And I wanted to follow my passion around health, wellness, sports, and I'm hesitating 'cause I'm like, "Yeah, that next move doesn't really fit this 'cause I went to beer." Um... 7:34 [laughs] Yeah, but that's what you get at the end of the event. Uh, what's that? That's what you get at the end of the event. That's, that's true. 7:40 And in fact, actually, here's something you probably don't know, but w- it was our team that started the trend of beer at the end of races. Wow. Yep. Um, true story. 7:51 It, uh, it's called something else now, but we-- So I was on Miller Genuine Draft, um, and our Miller Genuine Draft light product was basically dead. Like, it was a great beer, but it, like, volume-wise, it was nothing. 8:04 And my teammate, Allison Fowler, who I'm still really good friends with, she was leading M- um, Miller Genuine Draft light for us on a whole relaunch called MGD 64. So there's a Miller 64 that exists right now. 8:17 So basically, it was kinda looking at Michelob Ultra. Yep. And that wasn't at the end of the course back then. It quickly followed us. 8:24 So we started a whole trend on run, and we said, "Let's have a beer at the end of the course, and let's also target women." 8:30 Um, and so Allison created this whole thing around the lightest beer on the market, and it worked. 8:35 The downside of going the lightest beer on the market based on calories, it's kinda like saying, "Hey, I've got a new program for you. It's the eight-minute abs." 8:43 And you know who's gonna take you out next as your competitor? The one that does the seven-minute abs- [laughs]... and then the six-minute abs, and the five-minute abs. 8:49 [laughs] So Z- MGD 64, we knew we only had so much runway- Right... till if it was successful, which it was, um, someone was gonna come out with a lower one, and sure enough, that's what happened. 8:58 I think there was a Bud Light 60 or 59. I don't even remember. It's, it's-- I have to admit, that's a while ago now. But you're right, it, it did start with that. 9:07 But the reason I did go to beer was actually to touch on sports marketing, and I did get the opportunity to do that, which was really cool. 9:16 I also learned, although I love sports, I really love participation sports and participating and being in the mix. Um, I left there, and I went to become CEO for the first time. Uh, actually, that's not true. 9:27 I went to Kashi down in San Diego first. That changed the way I looked at business. So the Simon Sinek talk, you know, the why talk that m- many people have seen. 9:36 I think it's, like, fourth most watched TED Talk of all time. It didn't exist when I was at Kashi. It was actually when I saw that Simon talk, I'm like, "Oh my God, that's us. That's, that's what we do." 9:44 So we led with purpose and why, and I will say that, combined with my previous experience, was building a playbook that I had no idea I was building in my head, um, of how to lead a team as a CEO. 9:56 Again, that actually wasn't even my aspiration. I was just... It, it-- well, I was fortunate. Um, and so Kashi really is about putting values, how we behave, vision, purpose, like, ingrained in what we did. 10:10 Um, so that was incredible, incredible life experience. Plus, I learned how to surf. I was living in San Diego, so that's cool. Canadian living in San Diego? Come on. Um, working in La Jolla? 10:20 Oh, yeah, that was, that was a good, good, uh, good part of the career tenure. From there, then I, then I moved to-- back to a frozen tundra and did cleaning again. I became the CEO for Mrs. 10:30 Meyer's Clean Day, so natural clo- uh, soaps, cleaners, detergents. I took over for the founder, Monica Nassif, after SC Johnson, a family company, had acquired it. Um, and so- Did you have anything to do with that? 10:43 So I didn't have anything to do with the acquisition. I came in post-acquisition, and then they, um, had me basically interview, and they wanted to consider me as a candidate based on my background. 10:53 They liked that I knew SC Johnson. They liked that I'd done the scaling at Miller, and they liked that Kashi, at the time, was considered one of the better acquisitions of all time. 11:01 Um, Kellogg had acquired Kashi, so I kinda knew a little bit of how to do that. So I was probably a, a good fit for what they needed at that moment. Um, 11:10 so yeah, I didn't have anything to do with the acquisition during, but I did post. Obviously, I took it over. Monica Nassif, founder, brilliant woman. Here's a little unknown thing that most people don't realize. Mrs. 11:21 Meyer's is actually themed after Thel- uh, Thelma Meyer, which is Monica's mom. And Thelma had nine kids. I think it's nine kids. Sorry, Thelma, if I got that wrong. She has the same birthday as me, by the way. 11:37 Um, but, uh, so Thelma had nine kids, and she was so pragmatic about how she used resources at home in her home in Iowa that she would, like, have spaghetti, and she'd save the water to then use on plants and different things as well. 11:51 So Mrs. Meyer's comes from this roots of, like, from the garden, from home. Great experience. Amazing. We were named a top company to work for by Outside Magazine on my third year there, and we had, like, all... 12:02 That was actually the thing I'm most proud of. You'll see that it's a common theme. I'm just super proud of the team stuff. Um, but we also have really good success on the business front. 12:08 Um, that, that tenure didn't last as long as I thought it was gonna be. That went a, a few years, and they wanted to make a change, andThey needed a different type of leader. Um, did I agree with at the time? No. 12:20 Um, do I think it was the right call now? Yeah, maybe, maybe. Um, so I left, uh, after a few years. Tried to figure out what do I wanna do next. Did some consulting. 12:31 Um, worked with some really cool brands, one in particular, Vega. Do you know Vega? Yeah, yeah, Brendan. Yep, Brendan Brazier. Yeah, got to know Brendan really well. Um, Charles Chang, got to know him really well. 12:41 Um, wonderful team. And then Noon happened, um, and I became the CEO for Noon. Uh, and that was a really interesting thing behind the scenes. 12:50 By the way, you never know when stuff's gonna happen 'cause I had two offers in hand that were in SoCal, actually, and I got approached by somebody to be the CEO for Noon, would I consider it? 13:05 And I said, "I've got two offers in hand. I think it sounds awesome, but I don't think I'm your guy. It's too late. Like, I've, I'm, I'm already down the final..." They go, "Give us one week." 13:14 And so I met with every single board member, I met with all the Noon team, and then they gave me an offer and I'm like, "You guys win. I wanna go here." 13:21 And I got to follow my passion, which we talked about earlier today, you and I, when we were at lunch, is I miss the endurance space and being immersed in that. I, I got to do it. 13:29 So Noon, did that for, um, almost a decade and, uh, that was incredible. That was an incredible run, pun kind of intended maybe. 13:40 Uh, and we sold to Nestle, uh, Nestle Health Science specifically, um- For a quarter billion, something like that? Yeah, your numbers are, are roughly right. [laughs] Correct. Um, so that was a good run. 13:53 Uh, I still stay in touch with the Noon team, whoever's left. There's not a lot left. And I do stay in touch with the Nestle Health Science team, um, a little bit. 14:01 I try to, uh, 'cause I just have so much passion for the brand, but we'll, we'll see where it goes. 14:06 Um, you may have heard news, but it looks like they'll probably be looking at selling that off and a few other supplement brands 'cause, excuse me, they're shifting their focus, which is, uh, totally understandable. 14:16 Um, and then today I'm, uh... So after I tried to figure who I am again, um, I'm not sure if I figured that out, but I now have taken the CEO role for Tosie. 14:25 So and it's basically a really healthy, clean snack brand, like nuts and seeds in a bar, you know, almost like a Kellogg corn that's nutrient dense. We have that product. 14:37 It's just, it's a wonderful family that started it, and they asked me to come in and, and take the CEO role and help lead them to the next level, and we'll see if I can do that. 14:45 So it's, uh, it's early on, but I'm excited about what we're doing. That was a phenomenal intro. [laughs] I don't know if it was phenomenal, but I realized, man, I guess I should probably ground the audience- [laughs]... 14:56 on who I am because I haven't been in the space very, for a while, so. Yeah. 15:00 Well, I think many of the people listening to this will be familiar with Noon, and if they're not familiar with Noon, they're familiar with the, the playbooks that Noon created, right? Totally. 15:11 We first connected probably 2013 or so. Yeah. 2012 even. Sh- may- probably maybe more '13 or '14. Yeah. Yep. And I was at Energy Bits at the time- Mm... building a brand ambassador program- Mm-hmm... 15:25 for people who were interested in spirulina and chlorella algae. But- With a Canadian... with a Canadian. [laughs] Uh, and that company is still around- Yeah... somehow. Catherine, right? Catherine, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 15:36 Um, and what was really novel at the time was the concept of a brand ambassador program. Mm. 15:43 And so it was, it was cool to see kind of those two companies pave the way for, you know, we're now 12, 13 years later, like, this is now a very formal 15:54 and, and structured piece of most businesses in the outdoor space, let alone, um, non-endemics, you know, outside of, of the outdoor category. True. 16:05 I wanna go back to the passion piece and then we'll jump back to the- Yeah... to the business side. So when did outdoor adventuring and, and activities enter your life? Me? 16:17 Um- Separate from the hockey stuff, 'cause that's in the blood... that's in the blood. You're right. We're born with skates on. Uh, actually pretty early age. Uh, s- like when I say early age, the fourth grade. 16:31 Um, and I s- here's something interesting that I wish more schools would replicate. So I g- I grew up in the capital of Canada, Ottawa, in the suburbs, 16:43 and the reason I'm bringing that up is there's this little elementary school called Bell's Corners Public School, and every day, every day it was mandatory that, um, your class, so it would be rotating throughout the day, everyone had to run or walk, some kids didn't wanna run, 20 minutes every day, 17:01 every single day. Wow. And then there's also phys ed gym class. And so I got hooked on running then, and then I joined the cross-country team, and then I was on the track team. So 17:12 it kind of got in my blood, um, really, really young. 17:16 It, to me, it's fascinating 'cause I, I think because I started at such a young age, and my parents never pushed me, I just wanted to do it and just kept on going, um, I think running just comes so naturally to me because of that too. 17:30 Like, just even my heart rate is oddly enough crazy low. Um- That's a Canadian conversion though, right? Yeah, you're right. That was metric. [laughs] Well played. 17:41 Um, n- but I, I do think there's something to do with that. But it, so it was a really early age. It was kind of by accident. 17:46 Um, and then I just continued to do, like, cross-country and track throughout, you know, elementary and, you know, early school. And you got into triathlon, you got into long distance running. 17:58 What did that evolution look like? Yeah. So triathlon was, um, I mentioned Allison Powell earlier, um, s- who worked with, uh, with me on Miller Genuine Draft. Well, that MGD 64 also sponsored a triathlon. 18:10 That's actually when I first got into triathlons, um, 'cause I could barely swim. In fact, I was afraid of the water when I was a kid.And Alison has a sponsor, the Chicago Lifetime Triathlon. 18:23 Um, i- it's such a big deal, and she's like, "Do you wanna do it?" I'm like, "I can't swim." [laughs] And she go, and then she goes, "Come on." And so I'm like, "Okay." Um, I was horrible. 18:34 Like, I backstroked the entire thing, could barely get through that. But that is actually where it started, and I have this thing about if I fear something, am I willing to give it a try and see if I can get over it? 18:46 So interestingly enough, I'm still afraid of the water today, yet I have done many triathlons, including Ironman and half Ironman distances. 18:55 And every single time, every single time, I'm freaked out in my head, and no one knows it, but I'm freaked out. You know what I listen to while everyone else is trying to get pumped up? 19:05 I've got headphones on 'cause I go hand it to my wife. I'm listening to Bob Marley, right? And I'm basically, "Everything's gonna be all right." [laughs] "Everything's gonna be all right." 19:14 And I'm literally just trying to keep myself, like, just calm. Don't freak out. Um, and I seem to somehow manage each time. Amazing. So many people who love running and triathlon love the idea of working in sport. 19:32 When did that come into play? When did you decide you wanted to be in this space, and did you have any fear that it would turn this passion, this hobby that you have into something that you didn't enjoy? 19:47 I never had that fear. Um, I hear, I've heard that, right? You know, "I have a hobby. Don't work in it." Yep. I never had the fear. I don't personally agree with that. 19:56 Uh, if you can be fortunate enough to do it, I think you live what you're doing, and you can have work-life integration. That is the best place. 20:03 And, and, and Beer really was- Work-life integration, I love that- Work-life integration... instead of balance. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, how do you integrate it? So, and we're, we're so connected, right? 20:11 Like if you think about our phones and technology today. If we try to separate that, I think we're, we're kind of losing something. So how do, how do you make it more integrated? 20:19 Um, that doesn't mean it needs to be a sweatshop and you're always working, but if you can somehow integrate it, I think you can do it. And, and truthfully, sports was the reason I went to Beer. 20:28 Um, it was, uh, an opportunity that I had, and I was trying to get close to it, so I was trying to pursue it. But you don't always get the chance, right? 20:37 There is something about follow your passion, and I'm not sure I, I'm saying that, though, right now. So I didn't have that fear. 20:44 If you're fortunate enough to follow your passion and you get the opportunity, that's amazing. 20:49 But I still think you can be passionate about what you're really good at, like working on cleaners, like I did for many years. Uh, th- th- let me tell you. 20:58 When I was in university and someone said, "You are gonna be leading the Drano brand," do you think I'd be like, "Heck yeah. I'm fired up for this"? 21:07 [laughs] And the, the truth is, though, if anyone that knows me, when I was working on Drano, I loved it. I was all about it. Like, I was all about it. And I loved it. I loved what I learned. 21:18 I loved what we were doing, and, and it was, it was really cool. Um, would I do that today? Well, I'm in a position where I can follow my passion a little more, so I'm a little more fortunate at this stage of my life. 21:30 So no, I wouldn't do it 'cause I don't, I, I don't, I don't want to do that. I think I can go on a different path. Um, so yeah, long story short, I did pursue it. 21:38 No, I don't think you should hold yourself back because it's a hobby. I really don't. I don't think that's good advice. So you find yourself at Noon. Mm-hmm. What does day one look like? 21:47 How, how do you enter a company as CEO? Hmm. I have a really funny story, sort of funny. Um, we- We'll be the judge of that. Yeah. You know what? Not funny. 21:58 [laughs] Just, wow, I can't believe that's how your first day went. And so I come into the office the first day at Noon, and so it's a big open room. Yep. And then there's all these desks around the perimeter. 22:11 And then there's this one offshoot part of the big room, 'cause you've been there. Yeah, yeah. Right? There's one offshoot where there was actually windows to the outside. 22:18 Everything else, there was no windows to the outside. The only thing I remember about, about the Noon office is the big open space- Yeah... and I took a photo at noon in Noon. Oh, you did? [laughs] Yeah. 22:27 [laughs] That's awesome. Um, it was, it was a wonderful space. 22:31 Some-- but remember, I'm coming in, and so the, all the desks are around the perimeter, and then there was these two desks over by the window, which is near the kitchen. 22:38 The point here that everyone needs to take away is there wasn't a lot of natural daylight in that room. It was fun. There was lots of bibs of races and bikes everywhere. Yep. 22:47 But it didn't have natural light except for one spot. I walk over, and they, so the team goes, "Kevin, here's your seat." This is literally, you asked how I started. This is day one, morning one, minute one. 22:57 Like, "Here's your seat." I go, "This is my seat?" So I'm basically sitting by the window. And I'm like, "Really?" Uh, and I see a desk in the middle of the space up against, like, a pole cylinder. 23:09 There was, like, two desks there, but no one sat there 'cause we were still a small team, so the desks were just basically sitting there empty. I would go, "Who's sitting there?" And they're like, "Nobody." 23:17 I, and so I said, "Can I sit there?" [laughs] And they're like, "Well, you're the CEO. You can sit wherever you want." [laughs] And I go, "Okay, I'll take that seat." They're like, "Really?" But 23:28 in hindsight, that actually wasn't done intentionally to send a message of, like, that. 23:34 I was saying, though, that space should be someone that's working behind the computer all day long, and I'm in meetings all the time. That doesn't make sense. 23:41 And then two, though, it sent a message right away of I'm here to serve. I'm here to serve you. And by the way, in return, they're all to serve each other as well, including me. Like, that's what we're here to do. 23:52 That was day one, the message physically that I was sending, some of it intentional, some of it not realizing, wow, that actually was a bigger impact than I thought. You wanted literally day one, so I told you. 24:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No- [laughs]... this is, like, exactly what I was digging for. Um, what was the response to that? Yeah. So- Was there one? Yeah. 24:11 I, I will say this is, so my self-proclaimed title is the Chief Eternal Optimist. Right, which I loved. And I did that way back at Mrs. Myers. 24:20 So it was my first CEO gig 'cause I didn't want it to feel corporate.That was the intention. So I was trying to come up with something. And so I came up with that. 24:28 Now I have that at, at noon, and then I do it as well at Tosi. I just keep the same title. So I give that context because 24:38 what tended to happen, I don't think everything's positive, but I've got good energy, and I, I expect and push people to have good energy, have energy to push things forward. And 24:51 I would say it takes maybe 30 days for, or 45 days for a team to really start to go, "Is this guy for real?" [laughs] Like, that's kind... I can hear it without actually hearing. 25:02 I can feel it, I can see it, I can sense it. Why? Why is that conversation happening? The... I think they don't believe that a leader can trust them, genuinely think they matter, because that's what leaders fail to do. 25:18 They, they- most do. Not all. Most fail to really help people feel seen and feel like they matter, and I'm doing that one person after another in a group setting. Singles, boom, boom, just constantly. 25:29 And that's why, "Is this guy for real?" [laughs] Until it's like when the going gets tough or something happens, they go, "Damn." He is like that. He is. This is him. Holy crap. Why is it so rare that... 25:43 Like, we don't expect that, right? So I was telling you earlier about the conversation I had with Alex Mather, the CEO of Eternal- Mm-hmm... who, in our first conversation, was 25:53 saying things about investing in people that most people wouldn't do or consider, and he did. And, and people love working for him. And I, I [laughs] was, like, taken aback by, by the sincere... 26:09 I, like, I don't even know how to describe it because it, it, it felt so abnormal. Why does that feel so abnormal? And, and we see examples like the way that you've led, and it leads to outcomes that- Mm-hmm... 26:20 we're looking for, whether it's business outcome, work/life satisfaction, whatnot. Yeah. So, like, it works. Why is it so rare? Well, I think, first and foremost, 26:34 the leader of the organization or the leadership is thinking about a lot of the financial health of the company. I, I think that... And they should. I do as well. 26:43 So- How would you define the role of a, of a leader or CEO? Well, maybe we'll start there and then back into what you're saying here. Yeah. You know what? 26:51 I think the CEO, in many cases, once the team gets, uh, or once the business gets a little bit [laughs] of traction, is, um, you need to be the, the expert of nothing but the knower of all. 27:06 And so meaning you need to know enough to ask the right questions to move things forward and then to, 27:11 um, get the most out of is a bad saying, but get the most out of the team, like, so they can accomplish what their- Yeah... their, their potential is, right? And, and the collective group. 27:19 I think the CEO is also, their role is to help manifest and create an ecosystem, 'cause that's what the culture is, where the people can thrive, and therefore, the business outcome will happen. 27:34 So that starts with belief, right? A la Ted Lasso. But it really is about that. Oddly enough, Ted Lasso stole my belief thing, by the way. [laughs] Like, I literally did Ted... 27:44 I did, um, I did keynote talks with belief as the core. The lock-up song for mine is Don't Stop Believing, Journey, and then Ted Lasso comes out and steals it. 27:52 Um- [laughs] But it does start with that, all, all kidding aside. So I love Ted Lasso. Uh, but it does start with that, and then it's making sure people... 28:00 So that, that's on the CEO, for sure, or the leadership team collectively. What is that vision? What's the future state of the world? Get people to believe in that, and you gotta keep working at it. 28:11 Then I think it's from there, it's like, how do you go and help people feel like they matter and create a sense of belonging and, and all leading to the belief and the overall vision as to where you're trying to go. 28:22 Uh, and, and that is on the CEO. I also think, um, you'll hear this a lot is, let culture build organically. We... I, I won't swear. I'll just say, well, I'll call BS on that. Yeah. I'll call BS on that. 28:35 Meaning you have to be extremely intentional. Very intentional. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. We're all humans. I have all of the roller coaster of emotions like every other human, l- like every other leader that's out there, 28:49 and you, you need to, like, understand your, how to manage the highs and lows so you can be intentional of thinking of the impact you have on others. But that could go for any one of us. 29:00 When you're really frustrated, how do you wanna act? So you need to be intentional, and then you need to set what's, what are the values, what are the behaviors we're gonna have as a team. 29:10 Then ultimately, it's that organisms all around of the ecosystem that will make it stronger or weaker. And then so I need to be constantly on top of that. So I'm obsessed with culture. Um, 29:23 by the way, I'm gonna come back to one of the things, though, if, if we could on that is why don't they do it? So that was when I started with the financial piece. So you said, let's start with what the CEO does. 29:31 That's what the CEO does, right? So c- collect the vision, and then get people to believe in it, and create a sense of belonging so everything moves forward on that. 29:39 That's, that's ultimately, to me, what, what the CEO does. And so why they don't do it, I think they're look... we're looking at people the wrong way. 29:52 Because we're, we, we must, um, and understandably so, manage the business, um, financially, pragmatically in the right way, uh, we start to think of people as a cost center and as widgets. 30:07 Not literally, but figuratively. I don't think anyone literally is thinking that, but [laughs] I don't think. But- In some instances, probably. Maybe. [laughs] Maybe in some. 30:16 A little bit of, um, right, Bill Belichick, "Just do your job." Yep. Right? And that can workTo a point, and then until it doesn't. Right. Right. And- Winning kinda helps with that. What does? Winning. Winning does help. 30:33 You're right. And if they won a lot, and now was it Bill Belichick or was it Tom Brady? Who know? Yeah. Um- Yes. Yeah. Well, it's probably a bit of both. You're right. Yeah. Um, in fairness to both of them. 30:43 So I think, yeah, I think, I think winning does help with that. But it can mask at the same time. It can. It can. You know, speaking of winning, I came onto several businesses 30:57 as a marketing lead, which was kind of like being a GM in se- as many ways, and setting me up f- to be fortunate to be CEO. And I came onto several businesses that were not doing well. 31:08 Like, they were turnaround opportunities. When I went onto MGD, I was on a v- um, previous assignment with that. Um, I remember my peer saying, "Kevin, what the fuck?" So that's what they said, just to be clear. 31:21 Sorry for the swearing, folks. But, "Kevin, what the fuck are you doing?" Right? Like, "This is a career killer." I'm like, "I don't know, it sounds kind of interesting." 31:27 [laughs] Uh, 'cause it was in a business that was over 15 years in double-digit decline. Over 15 years in double-digit decline. Wow. And to turn it around seemed like basically there, there's no hope. It's done, right? 31:40 It's had its heyday way back in nine- maybe or late '80s, early '90s, whatever it was, the timing. And, um, we did turn it around. That MGD 64 was one. 31:50 We also did another thing that it worked as well, so we got a little luck on our side. Um, but you can create wins on a team, um, at any given time. Also, also... Oh, just, uh, sorry, I'm ranting here, but 32:05 I told you culture is a living ecosystem. There are micro-cultures within your culture, and that's okay. So when things weren't going well when I was in the big corporate world, why was it our team was doing really well? 32:21 And it's 'cause we developed our own team cohesiveness and culture within it. 32:25 The analogy, if we wanna use football as an example that I think of, um, if not, we'll use hockey to confuse everyone, but you could do it in any sport, honestly. So football, there's an offense and there's a defense. 32:37 They're all on the same team, so there's one team culture, but the offense has a different culture than the- No... defense. The offensive line has a different cohesiveness than the rest of the offense, right? 32:48 They're, like, so tight. Sales, marketing, product- Exactly... go to market- Yep... finance. And that's okay. As long as you know we're ultimately on the, the same team to win. 32:57 And so as marketing, we're here to serve sales. Sales, we're here to f- serve marketing or ops, et cetera, 'cause you can't win without the integration of all of it. I wanna 33:07 make a note on the sales and marketing dynamic and talk about that later as- Always a challenge... relates to culture. [laughs] Always a challenge, yep. 33:15 Well, I think that's, that's basically where I was going j- on, on that one is- Great... I think it's the... 33:19 I think the mistake is we think of it as people are widgets or a cost center, but what if you thought of it as an asset? The conversation I'm having with the team right now is, "Team, get all over AI. 33:29 Get all over these technical tools so you can be even stronger and liberate yourself to do even more. My intent is not to get rid of anybody. Let's go. Let's, let's expand our capability. Let's learn. Let's grow." So. 33:42 I love that. I love AI. It's really helpful- Yeah... in making- Agree... making us more efficient. 33:47 Um, although it creates a lot of slop with outbound emails and just tons of messaging, um, everywhere on the internet these days. Also true. Um, okay, I wanna talk about the tension around sales and marketing. Yep. 34:00 Right? So my experience in the past has always been sales wants marketing to do more. Marketing wants sales to do more. 34:08 Both need each other, and both are often confused as to why the other one is not serving the other team, right? 34:19 And, and how do we get to a place where, right, like, there should be a healthy amount of friction between sales and marketing i- in my understanding. Um, but it shouldn't be tension. It shouldn't be... 34:33 It should be amicable versus tough, right? So talk me through your experience in the dichotomy and dynamic between sales and marketing, and, and how to foster a, a healthy amount of friction. Yeah. 34:47 What you have experienced is the norm in virtually all businesses. Okay, good. [laughs] Sales and marketing will have tension. The reason, there's... 34:59 It depends on the business, but the reason fundamentally comes down to sales, sales folks are hunters. 35:07 I should, as the plant-based eater, find a different, um, analogy, but I'll just use hunters, meaning they're always looking for something new, right? Um, the, and so they're constantly hunting for more. Like, what's... 35:17 And that's, that's their job. That's great. They also get a, um, cycle times a feedback loop they get really quickly of, like, boom, win, loss, right? Did the buyer say- Yep... yes or no or whoever you're pitching to. 35:27 Uh, and so that's what they're expecting. Then the sales team tends to, "I did my job, over to you." Both are difficult. They're very, very different. They're both difficult. 35:39 It's not as easy as I think salespeople think, is like, pick up the awareness. Just build the awareness. Uh, it's gotta b- have more meaning than that. It's gotta stick, and it's, that is really not easy. 35:51 Like, that's hard. Uh, and it's a cluttered environment out there. So sales teams have to understand that, and so you're right, you have to work in tandem. 35:59 So the more you can collaborate and find ways to work together on marketing within a sales world, I think the better off you are. 36:06 So you really have to push teams to work together and have them start to learn the other side. By the way, marketers, on the other hand, probably come... There's a little... 36:17 Marketers can be a little more egotistical, is the w- uh, and what I mean by that is marketers are usually the strategists, and so-They're like, "This is what we're gonna do. This is the roadmap. Now just go sell it." 36:32 Right? Because the sales team is usually the commercialization of the strategy. And I think that creates a tension because there's, there's a little bit of, "I might know better than you." But that's actually not true. 36:44 It's a little bit like here's the sophisticated Harvard MBA, but here's the trade school person, but you can't survive without the trade school person doing all this work. 36:52 And it's just as valuable, maybe more valuable in many cases. 36:55 But if you can get the right, using Harvard as, you know, best in class school as an example of, "Here's the approach of what we're gonna do," boy, that sure could make everyone more efficient 'cause we're really focused. 37:05 So there really is an, a respect, but I think that respect gets l- um, lost in the day-to-day and that tension happens because of the sense of urgency, because of the desire for results, and the, a way to get there is so different. 37:17 And I do think marketing cycle times of feedback, although in a digital world it's quicker now, but i- it's just, it's not as exact, where sales it's, it's a little more binary. It's yes, no. I'm in or not. Yeah. 37:27 Or, "Hold. I'll know in a week." Right? And then it's yes, no. [Instrumental music] If this episode is sparking something for you, we'd love to hear it. 37:39 Share your takeaways on LinkedIn and tag Long Run Lab so we can follow along and join in on the discussion. 37:44 Your reflections help the ideas go further and might be exactly what someone else needs to see in their feed today. 37:51 [Instrumental music] How does customer experience and customer service and product fit into this while also acknowledging the fact that sales gets paid the most in the organization most, uh, most of the time or- Hmm. 38:10 Not necessarily... that can be true. Not necessarily, but- Yeah... can often be true. True. Um, depending on what, what is being sold. As well as, 38:19 uh, just incentives being either aligned or misaligned, whether it's, like, the KPIs of the product team versus the KPIs of the marketing team versus the KPIs of the sales team. 38:30 Those might all be different, or should they be similar? Should there be shared KPIs? How, how do you think about aligning those different teams all towards the, the same mission to work in tandem? Or do you? 38:44 You need shared, in my mind, you need shared KPIs. You also need individual KPIs as well, so you have your personal accountability to something. What, what do you own, air quote, on that? Yeah. 39:01 The shared KPIs, that's... 39:03 This is where the leadership team and then where the CEO needs to come into play and it's a, the CEO's also about bringing people together, helping people understand the challenges and headwinds on both sides. 39:12 Should each person know the other team's KPIs? Yeah, I think that'd be, that... Yes. I think full transparency on that would be ideal. 'Cause most people know sales KPI, which is- Yeah... sales numbers. Yeah. 39:26 But I don't know, I often didn't know product or I've heard that people don't know marketing KPIs or, you know, all sorts of different things. And so it's, it's hard to know, right? 39:37 So I, I think about it as when I do partnerships with brands, I ask, "What, what are we being evaluated on? What are you being evaluated on? How do I make you- Mm-hmm... look good to your boss? How, how do I- Mm-hmm... 39:49 help you win?" And so I'm sitting here asking that question- Mm-hmm... to brands that I work with so that I can structure a successful partnership. Mm-hmm. But I haven't seen, I haven't seen that inside of a brand. 40:02 They should have it. 40:03 They should be, um, saying, "Here's the key metrics that we're going after on the marketing piece," so that the rest of the organization has visibility to understanding their role and, and also the challenges they're going through. 40:18 Sometimes I think the, um- And, and should that be, like, is best practice to remind or do check-ins on that? 40:28 'Cause like I, at, at times in my career I have been informed of marketing KPIs or sales KPIs or whatnot, but that's, but it's in my experience been less of a- Formalized?... formalized. Yeah, it should be more... 40:43 You wanna get to a formalized scoreboard, right? Like, you can't win staring at the scoreboard. Right. We're losing, it's halftime and you're staring at the scoreboard. Right. That's not gonna do anything. Right. 40:53 Then you get to what, so what am I gonna do about it? But we should see the scoreboard, the KPIs for the organization s- anything sales specific. You don't have to go to all the depth on that one. 41:05 Um, but generally speaking, what, what are the key metrics from sales? What are the key metrics for marketing? What are the key metrics from operations? 41:13 Um, finance is usually total company, but operations could be like fulfill rate and all that kind of stuff, right? Like are we delivering customer service, et cetera. You need that scoreboard, 41:23 and I think it's important people, for the rest of the team to understand why those are the metrics. So as an example, let's use this. 41:34 So we're doing our podcast and one of the, you know, this episode right now, and we're gonna have whatever, X number of downloads. One million downloads. Yep. Sweet. From your words to God's ears. 41:46 [laughs] So one million downloads. Did it build my brand? 41:51 Uh, well, it turns out when I dig in that, yeah, they were tuning in because they saw one soundbite and they were trying to get to something and maybe it didn't really build the brand. 41:59 They just really liked the, that clip. My, my point being is sometimes the marketing KPIs can feel a little squishy. 42:07 It's like we said we were gonna build our audience to this or we were gonna get an open click rate to this. And then if you're now go, "So what does that mean? Did it grow our business?" I'm like, "I don't know." 42:19 Uh, 'cause so it, I, I think it's important, the education. I will tell you one of the things that's really worked for me, at Noon we did this all the time. Jerry, our CFO, was so good at this. 42:29 We wouldDo a scoreboard every month. Town hall, people would see what's going on high level, what's happening across the organization, which would include marketing, which would include ops, sales, et cetera. 42:42 We would constantly teach and coach everyone what... So what does this mean? So what does this mean? Uh, 'cause just having a scoreboard for a scoreboard's sake really doesn't do anything. 42:53 So what action is it going to drive? And I- the thing that we need to do is we need to constantly coach and teach to elevate people's game. I had a piece of advice from Tom Long, the CEO of Miller. 43:07 Miller's coming up a lot today. Wow. Um- Should be drinking, uh, Miller Lite here. I didn't expect that to happen- [laughs]... by the way. Uh, I, I almost rarely ever- Your beer of choice in college. 43:16 [laughs] There we go. [laughs] So Tom Long says, um, uh, we were doing this tour with this leadership team around the US, uh, presenting, you know, plans. And we were talking about these on town halls before anyway. 43:28 I'm like, "Tom," like, "we're saying the same thing over and over again." And he's like, "Kevin, we need to always be campaigning to keep people on message." 43:37 My takeaway on that one is he's not wrong, actually, of making sure we stay focused on the key priorities, but I also think what we did well that was another level is, so what does this mean? So what does this mean? 43:49 And so by doing that, other people started emulating that behavior. So again, transparency in the results, alignment on the results. I understand why you're doing it. If you have a question, ask. 44:00 If you wanna question it, ask. Uh, uh, but at the same time, you're gonna hear it, and we're gonna keep educating why does this matter. 44:08 Ronnie, the CEO of InsideTracker, would joke that his job was chief repetition officer. Oh, yeah. There you go. Same idea. Yeah. 44:16 I th- it's true, though, 'cause there are so many things coming at us, and we chase the shiny new toy. You and I were talking earlier today about Costco. And if you think about Costco- By the way, we love Costco. 44:32 Of course, of course. The model, at least outwardly to everybody, is as simple as it gets, and it's the same thing it was when it launched 50-ish years ago. I think it's around 50 years old. It's older than that. 44:47 It's older than 50? Yeah. So- It's, like, the thir- 1930s, I think, in- Seriously?... in New York. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, did I miss that one? Sorry about that, Costco. 44:54 [laughs] Um, hopefully you're not listening to this. Uh- Hopefully you are, and let's dance, Costco. [laughs] That, that is really fascinating to me, though, is Costco has barely changed. 45:07 Same thing, drop a pallet, same l- like, limited number of SKUs. The size of the buildings are virtually the same. How they manage cash, as we talked about, is virtually the same. 45:16 It doesn't mean they don't evolve at all. In fact, they're really known to treat their employees really well, which is awesome, which means you have to constantly evolve there, too. 45:22 But yeah, I, I think we chase shiny new toys. What's innovation? What's new? What's, what are we doing now? What are we doing now? Have we really maximized with what we've got? 45:31 Have we got the fundamentals still going strong? I wanna go back to the prior point and talk about accountability around the scoreboard and the measurement- Mm-hmm... for each team. Mm-hmm. 45:41 Let's say someone's listening to this, and they're not the CEO and they're not a VP, but they're, uh, an employee at a brand that's not doing this visibility into goals and alignment. Mm-hmm. 45:55 How does somebody who's not an executive 45:59 suggest that something like this, or can someone who's not an executive suggest that something like this get implemented out of curiosity as well as, like, I just wanna know what's going on with the product team, or I just wanna know what marketing is, is getting, you know, their bonus for. 46:17 Yeah. Um, and, like, how do we help them win kind of a thing. Like, is there an opportunity for a non-executive to implement or even suggest such a, such a structure or strategy? I think in most cases, 46:31 obviously not all, the answer is yes. I've been reflecting a lot on what got me here to this moment, what worked, what didn't work. In one of- An airplane and a car. 46:46 [laughs] Yes, from Seattle to, to Denver, and then driving to Boulder. But what got me here in life, on my career, in my life journey and career journey. 46:55 And one of the things that I've really realized when I look back in my career at big corporate America, if you will, you know, Kashi being part of Kellogg. There was the Miller one that we talked about. 47:08 SC Johnson is a big privately held company. I wasn't the smartest person in the room, but I wasn't... Maybe that was part of, like, 'cause I wasn't the smartest person, I was actually speaking up. 47:23 I would speak up to say, "What is going on here?" Or, "What do we think we can do differently?" Or, and challenging it, not to be a jerk, all with the intention to move it forward, and it was used with open arms. 47:36 I do think it's how you do it. I think one of the mistakes is people sometimes ask questions to prove a point, that I had just shot a hole in this, right? Right. 47:44 And that's a mistake, 'cause now you've got your back up whoever's there. But if you go in with good intentions and make sure that's clear, I believe almost all organizational leaders are gonna be open to that question. 48:00 If they're not, they got bigger issues. Leading with curiosity. Exactly. Yeah. Like, you should always be open to it. Right. I can't imagine someone not being open to it. Yeah. Versus, like, it, it's not a gotcha. 48:12 It's a how, how can we be better? True. There's also, don't build presentations, you know, recommendations based on what you think they want to hear, the management. That's, that's the other big mistake I see happen. 48:29 And again, maybe it was 'cause I wasn't that bright, but I didn't do that. I built-Decks, presentations, trying to understand where they're coming from, but I didn't do it to tell them what they wanted to hear. 48:42 I truly, throughout my career, would just for, I think, for the most part, go, "Here's what I think and here's why. Here's my rationale. Now let's debate." And it worked. 48:52 Uh, and it sounds so obvious, but most people build it to what they think their audience would want. Satisfy somebody else. Yeah. And they don't even know they're doing it half the time. 49:02 I was in a conversation with a new employee. They were asking me, they were struggling with something with, you know, presenting to the Nestle team. And I said to them, I go, "Do you hear yourself right now?" 49:14 I go, "You sound so corporate." And I did that on purpose to try to, like, poke, poke at them. And then they just started laughing. 49:20 And I go, "But no, seriously, like, do you think Abigail, the CEO, wants you to tell her what she just wants to hear? Or do you want to go and say, 'I know this is where you're at and what you're thinking. 49:33 I have a different recommendation. I believe we should do this. Here's why. Here's what's going on,' and have the courage to do that?" 49:40 Of course, they agreed, and I assume that's what they ended up doing and whatever their recommendation was. I think you can get caught up in it. 49:48 It's, you're surrounded with people that are worried that probably that's, it, they don't have psychological safety. The environment hasn't set it up. And so they're worried about what's gonna happen to them. 49:59 But if you take away that worry, you're actually gonna perform so much better. It's like anything. Yeah. These high-performing teams are teams where it, making mistakes is okay, right? Right. 50:08 So how do you, how do you enable people to take risks and make mistakes in the spirit of forward progress or learning faster, failing faster? Have you heard of the concept of situational leadership? Yeah. 50:22 Like, truly, like- Yeah... there's a concept, right? And you know there's four levels to that. And I'll just remind you or everyone else just how that looks. 50:27 So it, it could be four, it could be eight, but this model happens to have four. And it basically goes, where are you on the task at hand, so you can be afraid to make mistakes. 50:39 So if you've never done it before, I'm a development one level. I've never done this before. Well, I shouldn't say, "Jonathan, why don't you just go do this and come back to me when you're done?" 50:48 Okay, I did not set you up for success. The, the leadership that I need to do is I need to be very hand-holding, go try this, keep it in small bites, and keep coming back. Keep coming back, right? 50:59 Less risk because you haven't done it before. Now there's one, the second level is, I've done this a few times, but I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm, I'm getting better, but I just don't know enough. 51:08 So the cycle time of information. The fourth level, if I skip one, goes, you've done this so many times, it's like you know it better than me, so I'm just gonna let you know when I'm done. And that's okay. 51:20 And by the way, you may make a mistake is my point. But that level of where you are on the development does shift on where risk should be, to, to be clear. So it shouldn't be just carte blanche go. 51:29 The other clarification that we all need to think about is taking risks and it not working out i- is not wonderful, but it, but it can be a good thing in the end. 51:45 Taking risks and being sloppy and making mistakes, that's not good. And so th- those two get confused, right? Don't be sloppy. Make sure you're thinking it through. Do your homework. Follow through. 51:58 Execute with the best precision that you can in whatever you're doing. And that is critical. It's kind of like training. My training for the day is this. 52:06 Did I check the box or did I do it with intention as to what I wanted to do in training today? And if you do it with intention, then you did it right. If you just did it and showed up, you were kind of sloppy. 52:16 And maybe you'll get injured. Uh, but that was sloppy. That was stupid. Why did you do that? Yeah. You know that that wasn't part of the plan. 52:22 I love this concept because I've, in my entire career, felt fully enabled to fail fast, fail faster, or do things and make mistakes in the spirit of, will this work? Is this a better way? Will this land? 52:40 Will it resonate? Mm. Is this a good way to reach people? Like, and I feel very grateful that I've had the leaders above me personally enabling me to do those types of things. And I've had wins that 52:56 resulted from that, that if I didn't feel enabled to take those leaps, I wouldn't have taken them. Mm-hmm. And then we wouldn't have had those wins. Mm-hmm. 53:06 I think you have a personality that, to me, is very entrepreneurial, and that comes with the, there's- But there's like a, like I, I crave that. I crave the- Right... the mistake-making. 53:21 Not mistake-making, the ability to take risks. The ability to take risks. A- and prove a hypothesis. 53:30 So two, two things, words that are coming into my mind because I think about you and depending on the situation and someone else that might be more risk-averse. 53:39 So, um, there is y- you know, your competence and your confidence. Have you heard, like, this kind of spectrum on that? No. So if your confidence is higher than what, relative speaking to what your- Your competence? 53:55 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So your confidence exceeds it, that could, that could be trouble. That's bad. Yeah. 53:59 That could be trouble 'cause you're making really crazy mistakes 'cause you don't, you just don't know what you don't know. Right. 54:05 Um, but there's also, so but then let's say sometimes you're gonna lean there 'cause you're gonna ha- you're, 54:11 you're confident 'cause you've, one, you have a track record of doing well with your risks for the most part, and so that should keep building confidence. 54:18 And you do, in fairness, I, like, knowing you, you do build your confidence, like you're always growing. That being said, it's probably out of kilter sometimes. It's probably a little bit here. Yeah. 54:26 There are people that's gonna have a confidence below their competence. That's also not a good thing 'cause, like, you know, she or he needs to lean in. Like, you're better than that. Yeah. 54:37 Like, you should be more confident. Right.And so that's gonna take some coaching for them to help get there. It's gonna take some coaching to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Bring that, bring that little-" Yeah... 54:46 humbleness back down here. Here's why, the risk." But the same thing holds true. And, and we are human beings. Like, we're individuals, and we all have that spectrum of different emotions and where that means. 54:57 So confidence and competence and where, is it in equilibrium is the key. Is it in the right range? And that's probably a good self-check for all of us to do. And you, I would say, is probably leans to this, 55:12 and you keep building that in, in harmony somewhat, and I think that's what's worked for you. I would love to see the people that have higher competence and bring that up. Like, it's okay. Come on. Don't, don't worry. 55:24 Yeah. But, but, but it's an adventure. Do you, do you often see a gender bias with that one? Mm-hmm. Do men often- Yeah... over-index on confidence? Yeah. I think men tend to lead with more confidence 55:40 and therefore sometimes are beyond their competence, and women the other way around. At the same time, I think women, maybe because of that, 55:51 there's something in the, in DNA of men and women- They're like much better at all else equal... they're actually better leaders. Yeah. Yeah. 55:58 Women tend to be, guys, careful, tend to be, it doesn't mean it has to be, but tend to be better leaders, and I think it's because they focus less on ego. Their focus, again, tend to. Uh, they focus less on ego. 56:16 They focus on, like, what's the job there? Think about women, like, nurturing in the home and w- like, who's driving that? That transcends into how they think of work. It, like, we gotta move this forward. 56:25 It's very responsible. And then we tend to be a bit, bit more risk-takers. They both are n- by the way, essential on teams. So but to me, that, that's where it tends to go. 56:36 And so if you're always a risk-taking, that could be a dangerous spot as a leader. Right. Uh, that's why I think te- women can tend to be better leaders. They both have the competence when they focus, for sure. 56:50 Uh, another question about leadership. So is Tosia in person only, virtual, hybrid? It's, actually, it, it's such a small company, but I would argue it's, it's a quasi-remote. Here's why. 57:05 Um, we do have a warehouse, and we have an office in Anaheim, California, where the founders, mother, daughter, Stephanie, Chelsea, started this company. And so there is a group of people there. 57:13 I live in Seattle, so I commute back and forth. But so does our sales lead lives in the Bay Area. So we're, we're, we just try to get together, um, quarterly or a little more than that. 57:24 But there is a team that's in Anaheim that's there every day. So that's why I'm like, it's kind of a quasi. Yeah. But I guess l- to answer the question simply, more remote than not. 57:32 Was your entire time at Noon in person? Yes. I'm curious your thoughts on remote versus in person versus hybrid. I loved the in-person experience, and then once 57:46 remote was introduced, I was like, "H- I go into an office, and I talk for hours." [laughs] Yeah. And [laughs] and I, like, have to go in at 11:00, having already done- Yeah... 57:55 a lot of my work for the day because I'm a social person and, and whatnot. So what are your thoughts on, on building remote versus hybrid versus in-person culture? 58:08 I do think there's an advantage of in person, which is gonna sound counterintuitive with me in Seattle and the, the teams in Anaheim. I do. I think- But I'd agree with you, yeah. Yeah. I also think 58:20 there is something about being in person, not just for the business, I think for development of people, uh, especially people earlier in their careers. I think being in person is probably a really good thing. 58:33 I'm not diminishing the challenges of commute time and all of that. Like, that's not fun. And so I'm with you now that I've done remote. It's really hard for me to give up that flexibility personally. It's really hard. 58:50 But I do think the best way is to do it that way. Here, here's what I will say, though. Pre-pandemic, um, early on at Noon, actually, half our team was in Seattle in the headquarters roughly. 59:02 Half the team was field sales all around the US, and then a little bit in Canada as we, as we started to, to grow. 59:08 And I will say the sales team and field marketing team had very strong team cultures, and they were remote. And I think about this often. I'm like, "How did our sales team do such a great job at that? 59:23 And how did our marketing, field marketing team do such a great job at that?" One, they had great leaders of the team, but they also had team that had buy-in. 59:31 And so one of the things that I adopted early on, this is like a funny story for you. 59:35 Zoom is, like, so, you know, everyone knows what it is, and actually Zoom's probably not even the most popular thing anymore with video conferencing. 59:40 True story, we had, like, no money at Noon, and we were trying to find free video options 'cause I was obsessed with not having a speaker in the middle of the table when we were having conference with everyone calling in, in town halls. 59:52 I just hated that, and I knew video existed. This is back in 2013. I'm like, "We've gotta do this." And so I'm like, "I want this." 59:59 And so Jeff Dean on our team was really good at technology, and he was trying to help find us a solution. So he finds us a solution. It was free. It was called Fuze, and it used to freeze and all. It was horrible. 1:00:09 He did it. That wasn't his fault. The technology was really bad. Then he tried another one. Oh, Lync was by, or Lyncs or Lync by Microsoft came out. Doesn't even exist today. That was horrible, and it was free. 1:00:21 And then Jeff goes, "Kevin, I don't know if we can do it." I'm like, "We have to find a solution. We have to find a solution." 1:00:26 And Jeff goes, and Jeff lives down in Santa Cruz, so near Silicon Valley, and he goes, "Have you heard of this thing called Zoom?" I'm like, "What the hell is Zoom?" And he goes, "Oh, it's technology. 1:00:36 All the Silicon Valley kids are using it down here." And so we adopted, we were really early adopter of it. 1:00:42 So bringing-- I do think video does help, which is not novel for us today, but it was novel back in 2013, '14, '15, '16. Like, we were really weird to most people that visit our office. 1:00:51 They'd see people on their computer talking to others, and it was, like, really funnySo here's what I would say. 1:00:57 You- th- there's there, but one of the things our sales team did really well, our field marketing team did really well, and I think any team on a remote can do, is you must be intentional in how you get people together, 1:01:08 and you can rally around different things. So Boulderthon would be this weekend if Nuun was activating. We wouldn't just bring a few people to do Boulderthon. 1:01:17 We would bring several people around it so more people were interacting with each other. We'd also execute better. We'd do hard things together, so we'd build trust and bonding and connection by doing hard things. 1:01:28 But it was also a chance to just rally around something. And there are events happening on most businesses all the time. Even if it's a retail activation, fine, bring in a few more people and do that. 1:01:39 I know it's an expense, but it's worth it 'cause that happens. Because what you're trying to do is build this connection that leads to trust. 1:01:47 Trust, right, leads to the sense of, um, uh, bonding, and then the bonding leads to a sense of belonging, and that is the key. And you're always feeding that, um, up the ladder. 1:01:58 And when you get a sense of belonging, and when I reflect on Nuun, and if I could distill it down to one thing that was Nuun was better than a- all of our competitors at, I think anyway, and at least how we scaled, it was all a sense of belonging and, and connection was our one thing. 1:02:13 We are gonna connect with everybody deeply. So you can do it, but you have to force in person at some point. Um, and it is harder. We have to be clear with that. 1:02:21 It is harder to build team cohesiveness and culture in a remote environment. It can be done, though. How do you get introverts to buy in? Well, I think introverts also have extrovert in them. 1:02:35 That is- I asked this question from Mariah Bridges. Oh, yeah [laughs]. [laughs] So [laughs] Mariah is awesome. I, I would say this is introverts have extroverts in them. 1:02:47 However, where they get their energy is going to be, like, getting alone time. So you need to think of ways to do that. 1:02:57 Like, I'm an extrovert, so I can constantly talk to people all day long, and I'm not leaving at the end of the day exhausted. I'm, I'm good. Like, let's keep going. 1:03:06 In fact, I'm probably exhausted if I was by myself and just was just only doing by... stuff by myself. I'm, I'm not in my best Kevin mode. 1:03:16 So I think it's really about understanding each other and giving space where that is. Uh, a- and I think a lot of that is on extroverts to, like, give space, stop, pause, quiet, let someone else talk, and invite them in. 1:03:31 Uh, give them a chance. Give them a warning that you're gonna invite them in is also a, a good way to do it. 1:03:37 And introverts tend to have just incredible, incredible ideas and thoughts and perspective because they're introspective thinking it through. So I don't know if that... 1:03:46 That wasn't a very magical answer, but I- It's prescriptive. Yeah. Um, I think it'd be remiss to not talk about fundraising and- Mm-hmm... um, acquisition. Mm-hmm. So you've gone through this a couple of times now. 1:04:01 Mm-hmm. Yep. You've fundraised at different size companies- Mm-hmm... different stages- Correct... in the process. Yeah. Um, what's the 301 or 201 level explanation of 1:04:13 what's essential for, for fundraising in today's environment? Most people talk about the total addressable market, the TAM, things like that, 'cause it's the size of the prize. 1:04:27 I don't really think that is what's most important. It's part of your story because it shows, you know, the blue sky thinking. What's most important is your proof of concept, the product market fit. 1:04:44 Do you have proof that people truly wanna buy this where you can be profitable? Even if you're not profitable, you have a... You, you can build a roadmap to that. 1:04:52 And do you have proof points that can then repeat and scale? And that's ultimately what all the investors are gonna dig into to understand. Is this a, is this a big idea? 1:05:02 That's why they're looking at the TAM intuitively. But then they're going, "Do you have proof points?" And that product market fit is key, no matter what. Selling, um, to, um, raising money and raising capital. 1:05:14 You know, one of the best lines I think I ever did when we sold Nuun to Nestle, and it sounds really bad, but it's, it was truly this is a legit moment that I think got Greg Behrens, the CEO at the time, Sean Buchholz, president, they really loved this 'cause there was no way I could fake it with any presentation. 1:05:32 They would talk about, "So what does this brand mean?" You talk about your community and what that looks like. And I would do this, I did this on several occasions. I go, "Pull out your phone." And they're like, "What?" 1:05:43 "Yeah, pull up your phone. Do you have Instagram on your phone?" "Yes." "Pull up Instagram. In the search bar, I want you to p- type in pound," i.e. hashtag, um, "and type in Nuun life." Boom. 1:05:57 You can't, you can't beat that level of engagement and community. Correct. And I said, "What you're seeing right there- That's what you're buying... is what you're buying. That's what the brand means." 1:06:08 And what you would see if you were to pull up the hashtag Nuun life is people pointing at their watch, not drinking it. Like, there was a bit of drinking of Nuun, but it was usually pointing at their watch. 1:06:18 I crossed the finish line, I did this, it was high five, it was hugs. It was all about more movement. S- yeah. It was about get more heartbeats in. It was about exercise and movement because we weren't selling hydration. 1:06:31 We were s- A lifestyle... hydration was a tool to live your lifestyle, to get you to move more. And it was so powerful. I know it was powerful 'cause I could see their reaction on the screen or in person. 1:06:42 And every time that happened, and I did it every time 'cause I knew it was gonna work. [laughs] I was just waiting for the moment to do it to... and make it feel like it was, like, off the cuff. 1:06:50 But the truth is I didn't make up the hash- well, the hashtag was made up by us originally, and then it became- It just worked. Yeah... 1:06:57 it was just something that became a life of its own and, you know, hundreds of thousands of posts on this made-up hashtag called Nuun life, uh, that spoke to it. So 1:07:08 my point is product market fitYou really need to prove that out. Um, and then you do need to show financial viability that you at least you have a roadmap to get there. 1:07:18 Now, things can change, things can go wrong, and you might be back [laughs] at, at raising money again. Uh, you do... You know, ultimately y- the saying of cash is king or cash is queen, it, it really is. 1:07:31 You just can't function without it, um, as a business. So you, you definitely need access to it. Now, if you can self-fund this, that's the best way to go. Um, most of us aren't in that position to do that. 1:07:42 That's why you want a capital raise. 1:07:44 And then as you move further along the track in your career journey, you're looking for not just the cash, you're looking for the intelligence on the other side to help you scale quicker so they can help you. 1:07:56 And TSG was our private equity group, one of the largest p- PE firms in the consumer packaged goods, actually in a lot in the fitness world, too. Um, uh, they were phenomenal in terms of helping us. 1:08:07 Um, and then of course, Nestle Health Science, uh, at the time was just, you know, really honestly a really good acquisition in terms of they had pro- vital proteins, which they still do, Garden of Life. 1:08:17 And they just had the model that really made sense for us. So what does that process look like? And if someone out there is building a business, how long should they expect a pre-seed or a seed round to, to take? 1:08:32 Uh, I think it depends on how much you're asking, how much your proof points are, like how valid that is. 1:08:36 But I, I, I would, I would say you need to plan for a three to six month on the-- like when you're talking about the seed round. 1:08:44 It could continue to linger even after that, but you've hopefully are bringing in money within three to six months. You could go quicker. Um, it's, it's possible. 1:08:52 Selling a company is usually more like a year, um, especially to a big company, es- strategic, because there's so much due diligence behind the scenes and where they're digging in. 1:09:03 Um, but three, three to, three to six months, I would say on earlier round, um, raise. And how did that communication go with the team members around the sale of the company? Well, it went well for a few reasons. So 1:09:20 that's a really, really good question by the way, 'cause a lot of people asked me that back when we first sold. Now it's been a little while. I haven't had that question in a while. 1:09:29 And I actually wanna share also what not to do. So what we did well at Noon, everyone at Noon had options, so everyone was an owner in the company, if you will. Um, so that was one. So now they're all part of it. 1:09:47 Now, not everyone was walking away with a massive check. Uh, so the other thing we did right is we were very clear on that's not what's gonna happen. It's gonna be a great payday for all of us, 1:09:59 but not everyone's walking away like, "I can retire now." Never working again. Yeah. That's, that's just not gonna be it. And back to coaching and teaching. 1:10:08 So I, with Jerry, and Jerry more the lead, our CFO, would coach people and annually take them through what are the options look like, what does that mean if it were valued at this? 'Cause it's actually value... 1:10:19 It's worth nothing unless it sells. Right. That's the other thing for people to remember. So it's, it's nice, but it may never mean anything. It may never have a value to you, unfortunately. 1:10:29 Um, in our case it did, and so we would coach how do you come up with valuations? What does that mean? If the company were to sell for this, this is what would look like, and this is what it would mean for you. 1:10:38 And he would literally take through every single person. You did that annually? Annually, yep. Take them back through, "Do you wanna have any questions of what's going on?" 1:10:45 Because we knew, we, we both him and I knew that we didn't want disgruntled people when an acquisition happened. One, they weren't clear on what that could mean, and so they were clear. 1:10:56 And so when it happened, it was like, "Awesome. Yay." We also told them that we were not... Th- this wasn't about selling out, it was about them buying in, and we're gonna continue to- Accelerate... 1:11:10 to, yeah, and continue to move forward as an kind of an independent company within the Nestle Health Science world. And that is how it started. That's actually not how it stayed. Um, and there's many reasons for that. 1:11:20 Um, that, that isn't how it's, how it ended up, unfortunately. I-- 'cause I still like the old model. Um, but the, a lot of things happened after they acquired Noon, where they made a big acquisition. 1:11:31 It changed a lot of the structure of Nestle Health Science, that they went to more of a matrix organization versus a holding company of companies. That's what we originally got acquired as. 1:11:41 That was their business- Intention, yeah... case with us, too. It wasn't just us. That's their business case. 1:11:46 Their changed all their cases because it became a matrix model of shared organization across the fun- different functions. But I, I would say I think the vast majority of people thought it was fair. 1:11:58 Like it, they, it wasn't completely unexpected. They knew this stuff was coming. Um, you can't tell them everything during a lot of this, but they, but it, we were very clear that w- we're on a roll. 1:12:08 We're gonna get bought at some point here, folks. This looks highly likely. But don't get distracted by that. Stay focused. Again, it's not a finish line- Right... is actually what I would say. 1:12:17 It's more like an aid station, right? Boom. Get your hydration. Let's keep going. Um, that was my goal. In fact, one story for you. I'll share this with you. 1:12:25 The day w- we sold, um, signed the deal with Nestle Health Science, and, uh, it was actually a virtual meeting, and I was on with our board, and there was a lot of, like, h- virtual high fives going on, and I was really quiet. 1:12:37 And I said to... Dan Nordstrom, um, s- asked me, he was chairman of our board, and said, "Kevin, why don't you leave us? You've been quiet. Why don't you leave us with a few, you know, words before we depart?" 1:12:48 And I said, "It's an awesome day. The reality is, is the, the team that actually made this happen actually isn't in the call," which is true. Um, it's the team. They're all out working. And I go, "I gotta go. 1:12:59 I got work to do." [laughs] And I, I actually wasn't really joyful. It wasn't that Dan did anything wrong. I just wasn't joyful. I'm just like, "I got work to do. 1:13:06 I got a team to make sure that they're feeling good," and it's 'cause they're gonna get this news and they're not gonna know it now. I know this and I can't share that yet. Um, but it's coming. 1:13:14 Like within 24 hours they're gonna see it. Uh, and then we do announcement right before it gets published. Um, so timing was everything. But yeah, I still remember that. II actually wasn't very joyful. 1:13:25 And the, it wasn't that I wasn't happy with the acquisition. Why do you think so? I was so focused on the team, and I just felt, um, I wanted to make sure that- You had a job to do. Yeah, I have a job to do. 1:13:33 Like, I just need to get back to work, like genuinely to the team. Was there a moment of joy at some point? Yeah, when the money hits the bank, that's a joy for sure. That, there is no doubt. 1:13:43 Um, and I got to do, I t- you know, when Nestle went to a different model, I told them I didn't wanna... I'm not your guy anymore. 1:13:50 Like, it's a different model now, so you tell me when, and then that's when I exited after, like a year later. And I did get to do some travel, so that was some joy for sure. 1:13:58 So my wife and I traveled in Europe for three months, which was amazing. Nice. Um, so that was the joy, but that's kind of it. Like it, y- I know it's, again, cliche, but you're, you're kind of winning the Super Bowl 1:14:11 or the Stanley Cup in CPG, and when you sell to a big company, like, it, it is kinda like winning that. That's the way your peers are looking at it in some ways. And I, 1:14:21 I will say it's like there's cool moments at the time, but then it's just like you're right back at it, and you... I don't know. It's just, it's not all that it, you thought it was gonna be amazing for. 1:14:31 It's not that it's bad. I'm just saying it's just, I'm glad it happened, but it's, it's really, I don't know. It's quick and fleeting. You said you had advice of what not to do. Oh, yes. 1:14:43 So the what not to do is make sure you're transparent like we were, truly. Like, that is the model to do. The, and the reason why we did that is we also heard from other companies where when... I think it was... 1:14:56 It doesn't matter what the companies were, but there were CPG companies based out of California. There was a few where it happened, and people were really pissed off. Like, like it's like, "That's it? That's all I got?" 1:15:06 And they're- Oh, I see... like, they're really mad. Um, or- Yeah, it's like 50K. It's not- Yeah... life-changing money. Yeah. But it'll pay off your car loan. Yeah, exactly. 1:15:15 And it's, you know, it could be more than that depending on the acquisition. Yeah. But yeah, you're, you're right. That's right. And so managing that was so key, and that's what I meant by when I said what we did. 1:15:24 So what not to do is find a way to do that, 'cause when you don't, you're gonna have people mad, and by the way, you actually, when you sell a company, no matter what, there's still transition time. 1:15:34 You're not going anywhere. You're not going anywhere. Like, you're going to be there for at least three months, at, like at least, likely six months to a year. 1:15:42 Um, but it's gonna be three months because there's a whole integration process, and that's gonna be from hell if you've created disgruntled people everywhere. So you've gotta think ahead. 1:15:53 Don't think shortsighted about just the sale. That's, that's the mistake I've heard many, many people do, and people are pissed off. I'm not saying they're right to be pissed off, but they are- They have a right to-... 1:16:05 to some degree. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe that's, it's, like no one told you that you were gonna get a million dollars. You just started going through your head seeing Silicon Valley tech people- Right... 1:16:15 selling for all this, going, "Look at me." Right. But it's a CPG company. It's a different, different- Very different world. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin, this has been a blast. Uh, we could do this for hours. Yeah. 1:16:23 [laughs] Might bore other people, sorry. [laughs] I think this is an incredibly prescriptive and useful episode for anyone out there leading or wanting to lead or curious about leading. 1:16:33 Is there anything you wanted to talk about today that we haven't covered? I miss, I miss being immersed in the endurance, like, sports, running, triathlon industry. 1:16:48 If you need any help, let me know, 'cause I, I wanna be part of it still. I'm not leaving Toastee, by the way. That's not what I'm saying. [laughs] I just miss it. Yeah. I just miss it. 1:16:55 But I'm, I got a piece of it, uh, just being here in Boulder with you, um, truly. Like, it means a ton, and I miss it a ton, so that really wasn't anything prescriptive. [laughs] It was just like, man, I miss this. 1:17:06 I love this industry. We gotta get you back. Yeah. We gotta get you, um, back with people and, and doing cool stuff and- Yeah. Have you considered doing consulting for organizational health? No, no. 1:17:20 I think you'd, you'd be so good at that. Yeah. Oh, thanks. It would be really fun to watch in action. Yeah. Kevin, this has been a blast. My pleasure. Um, appreciate your time. Yeah. Been awesome. Sweet. Cheers. 1:17:31 [upbeat music] Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Long Run Labs. If you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who's building something of their own. 1:17:44 We'll be back next Tuesday with more stories at the intersection of endurance and entrepreneurship from the people shaping the outdoor industry in ways big and small. 1:17:52 Until then, keep showing up, keep asking questions, and we'll see you out there. 1:17:56 This show is produced by Dylan Delaney of Delaney Video LLC, with musical composition by Brian Walters of Single Track Sound, and managed overall by Emily Holland of Wild Poppy Creative.
